Snoring and Restlessness: Sleep Troubleshooting With A Partner Guest Dennis Del Valle [Sleep 04]
Today I'm joined by my husband, Dennis Del Valle, leadership and executive coach, and licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. We are talking about sleeping with your partner today. Getting good sleep when you aren't the only one in the room can definitely be a challenge, especially if a partner snores or struggles with restlessness.
This episode will give you words for your experience if you struggle! We dive into shame, feeling done to by the other, how to navigate sleep needs with a strategy where it's a problem to be solved, not a personal defect. We even take on a common misuse of a biblical passage for those of you who may carry this burden in your marriage.
Join us! Dennis shares his journey of being a snorer as well as a body with sleep apnea. He dives into what he did to help himself — starting with a sleep study and how aging required him to enter back into the process of getting help. I thought I was over this — is everywhere in this episode as we discuss a need to be flexible and open to new problems as they arise and how to address them with connection and most importantly, SLEEP!
Please remember that this podcast is not a replacement for treatment by a healthcare or mental health professional. This content is created for education and entertainment purposes only.
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This transcript has been created using A.I. please excuse any missed words or incorrect grammar.
0:00:00.0 S1: Welcome to... I thought I was over this. I'm your host, Dr. Timber, a licensed clinical psychologist, trauma Geller and fellow life journey or every episode, we dive into the science of human ing and whether you find yourself feeling like you've just had an iceberg and don't know where help is coming from, or you're ready to trade in your raft for something bigger, you aren't alone. Grab what you need. Get comfortable. And let's do this. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am grateful that you are here, and I am excited to have with me my husband of almost 25 years, Dennis. We are going to jump in to sleeping with a partner and how to manage snoring, and this has been a request from a listener, alright, introduce yourself.
0:01:08.8 S2: So I'm Dennis, I'm the husband, I'm the one with the snoring problem, and we were chatting ahead of time, and one of the first things I remember when we first were married, and I heard that my story was a problem, I remember right away feeling embarrassed that... There's something wrong with me, I'm not the perfect husband, and I remember fighting it a little bit, like wanting to dismiss you thinking... Oh, it can't be that bad. And I had roommates in the past, I don't remember them making a big deal about it, I just felt bad, I felt embarrassed, I just remember early on like, Okay, what can I do about this and.
0:01:56.7 S1: What helped you shift out of that embarrassment, do you think...
0:02:01.0 S2: I think that it was all part of that first year of marriage and all those ideas and idealism slipping away, the real... What's coming forward? I wasn't gonna be the perfect sleeping partner, perfect husband. And I think it was all a part of that first year of the honeymoon ending.
0:02:26.5 S1: In our first year of marriage, and maybe several years after that, we were both the oldest children and we who were used to getting our way, and one of our biggest issues was the light on when we went to sleep, because you went to bed early, and I like to stay up and read, so... What's your memory of those times...
0:02:50.9 S2: I remember being very frustrated. I remember saying to you, Kimber, you can read anywhere in the house, I can only sleep right here, can you please go in the other room and it was true. It was so hard for me to fall asleep. I really struggled with sleep and needing to have these routines and practices so that I could fall asleep, and I just remember having a really bad insomnia those first years of marriage and just kind of being surprised by it, not... I don't really remember struggling with that before we got married, but into marriage, I think I just started struggling really with feeling like I could fall asleep, but then struggling, feeling tired a lot, and... So pretty early on in our marriage, I just remember like I'll send these sleep issues, and I don't remember them being there before...
0:03:49.8 S1: Well, for me, I can fall asleep anywhere. Maybe even in a train station, I mean, I could just fall asleep and I would later discover... Well, that's because I was sleep-deprived. And so I just remember thinking, Why? Can't he fall asleep? Like, this is ridiculous. He should be able to fall asleep. I should be able to have the light on and read in my bed, which is super comfortable, I don't have to get a transition from the couch into the bed, and eventually... I don't remember, it's been too many years, but eventually we transitioned so that... Yeah, we made it a rule basically, once you went to bed, the light was off, and I would either up and read or go to bed, and then I think I remember often getting up after we went to bed together, and then if I couldn't fall asleep, I would get up to read.
0:04:46.7 S2: In the living room... Right, yeah.
0:04:49.5 S1: I would get up and read in the living room... Right, and so one of the misconceptions that I want to bring up right now about snoring is there's some times when it's connected to weight, and I think sometimes that can be a dominant perception, but I really wanna be clear, one of our children... I won't out them was 60 pounds and snoring and even did the sleep apnea test, and so obviously that is not a weight issue, sometimes it's genetic, it's your airways, it's not something that you can help by food choices, I feel like sometimes they're a shame around that I just wanna disband that...
0:05:30.7 S2: Well, I think there's a shame about snoring, like it's disruptive, it's embarrassing, it's other people are disrupted by it, they can't sleep, and you can't control it, so it just feels like it's this bad thing that you can't fix and so... And it bothers other people and they can't sleep, and so then everybody has a problem. It's just so frustrating.
0:05:57.5 S1: Yeah, I love that you say that because I remember as I got more and more regulated and less sleep-deprived, you would wake me up, or if I was trying to go to sleep and your snoring... And one of the disagreements that we had is that I could wake you up and say, Hey, you're snoring, and then if you could change positions often, that would at least make the store... The snoring go away for a little while, and that was so helpful because it gave me a window into being able to wake you up without feeling guilty, it kind of took out the victim, me feeling done to... You feeling done too? It was kind of an agreement like, Hey, if we're gonna sleep in the same room in the same bed, we need to be able to navigate this very real thing, and it felt like eventually we got... So that we were on the same page and working together.
0:06:55.7 S2: Yeah, yeah, that stopping that I'm bad because I snore... And it became... The snoring is bad for both of us. It turned out later I learned that I had sleep apnea and it wasn't just that I snore. I wasn't sleeping well. And so that became the problem. Instead of it being something like, you first me, it was us together versus this problem... Yes, and we were putting our minds together to... How do we solve this problem?
0:07:29.2 S1: Yes, and one of the things that you did was you signed up to do a sleep study... Tell us more about that.
0:07:35.2 S2: Yeah, I was just thinking about that and I think several things came together and the first were some funny things, we'd be in bed, and I would swear I was just trying to fall asleep and you would bump me and say You're snoring, and I would say What... I'm not snoring, I'm fully awake right now track, and you'd be like, Dennis, you are storing that's... I'm waking you up you're snoring. I just think the problem was getting worse and worse, and I was having such a hard time getting into a deep sleep that I was in the shallow kind of sleep, and so I would think I was awake, but I actually picturing loudly. Obviously, so we had some big debates and arguments about whether I was awake or not or store, but I think when you started reporting to me that, Hey, last night, when I look you up, you weren't breathing and I was getting anxious. And coupled with that, I was just really feeling tired and fatigued and just never feeling like I could get enough sleep, and so I think maybe you'd read something or heard of something was a problem, and we say That's what I took it to my doctor, and she recommended, she had a colleague, and so that started the process of getting help.
0:09:16.5 S2: There can be help. And they start talking about all the benefits, how, when you're sleep-deprived, it really wrecks your body, and all the benefits when you can conquer the problem of sleep back in the benefits, signed up, did a sleep study, and I will say that the sleep study was miserable. That you go into this place. So kind of a... It could be an office building or a specialized where they have these rooms, a nurse and it's of course very quiet, but then they help you up with all of these sensors all over your body, 'cause they're tracking everything and you're like Frankenstein kind of walking through trinkets these wires everywhere, and it was so hard to fall asleep in that place, but eventually I did fall asleep and they were able to measure that. I think it was... It's been a while now since I had this study, but I think every one to three minutes I was waking up, and it wasn't that I was fully away, but my body would... I would have this apnea experience where I couldn't breathe and eventually my body would kind of jerk of it and wake me up enough or I could get a breath, and then I would kind of fall back sleeping.
0:10:58.5 S2: So I was sleeping, but I could never get to a deep sleep.
0:11:02.7 S1: And so from there, you decided to get a C-PAP. What led you to that? And how has that worked?
0:11:10.0 S2: Yeah, that... So they tested you to see if that works, and what they found is when they put this CPAP machine, it's a... Forget what it stands for, but it forces air into your airways, keeps all the airways open and that permits the choking and let you sleep, and so they recommended machine, so you get fitted for one, and that can be a chore because it's very uncomfortable all Senate mask on and then you have to find the right mask for your face, it fits, but also even the kind of mass, because the first one I had, for whatever reason, the rubber on it just would irritate my... Not so bad. And so I bought it for a while, and eventually they found another kind of ask for me, so you really have to be committed to this process. It's just a one-size-fits-all. You have it, here you go, you're done. You really have to work to find the right as the right mask material, head gear. It fits you, but eventually, I found one and... Wow. It just changed. My sleep really changed, I started sleeping soundly. I had no problem falling asleep, I could sleep through the night and started feeling a lot more rested and better energy, and so...
0:12:41.3 S2: Yeah, made a huge difference and would really recommend that people go through the process 'cause for some people who have even worse than I had it, it could be like a life changer.
0:12:54.1 S1: Yeah, and then you eventually went and had a surgery, so why... And how did you... That come to be.
0:13:04.1 S2: So after about 10 years of using the gear and getting benefits from it, something shifted and I started noticing that I was tired, and you were reporting to me that I was snoring even with the mask on, even with the head gear on, and I even had a sense that when you would give me that feedback, I could remember, well, you have these dreams, or at least a dream life, dream like fuzzy state where I could feel myself choking or... It just made sense. So I started investigating maybe that there might be more problems and saw a specialist and it turned out just with age, getting older and things sag, it turns out everywhere, and that they just said that, Hey, inside your throat, there's just too much loose skin and the opening is too small, and we really think you need to get that removed in order to get any benefit from your CPAP machine. And so about three years ago, I think right before covid, I did surgery. It was rough, but when you get your cons with that as a kid, it's almost like nothing... You're better in three or four days. It took me probably three months, I think, to feel like I recovered.
0:14:35.7 S2: And it was very thankful, it's very sad about that. And so I've kind of been experimenting since the surgery, sometimes I use the CPAP machine, sometimes I don't... I feel like I can sleep without it, but I still feel like the machine really helps me falsely quickly, and I really like that it's kind of late, and now that I'm in my 50s, I have another problem that we keep in the botnet, which is... I need to go to bathroom, and then that's become a whole issue, and I've really enjoyed listening to the sleep podcast number, because I wake up in the night of the bathroom and then I start thinking about things, and before I know it, I'm awake, anxious about... Some talk I'm gonna give or training I'm working on, and it can be little things. And so I've really been using some of your techniques to try to relax and get my mind focused on my breathing or un-relaxing versus... These things I need to do the next day. But it seems like we get older and there's always some kind of a nice or we're never just done. Right, 'cause I thought I was over that.
0:16:04.3 S1: I know, I thought I was over this too, I think one thing I noticed after your surgery is that you actually rarely snore now, even like you're saying without the CPAP, it seems to have shifted something for you in particular for that, so that... Even for you must be relieving because it's not something that you ever have to think about... I know we camp sometimes, and so it seems like it's nice to have been able to get that support.
0:16:41.2 S2: Yeah, the surgery, I think is opened up some possibilities that just weren't there before, and so... Yeah, I forgotten that that I was so dependent on the CPAP machine that when we would go camping or travel, wow, I would really be miserable because I couldn't sleep without the machine, and so now since the surgery actually I can sleep without the machine, and so it's really make camping more enjoyable again. And so that has been that big help.
0:17:19.8 S1: Fantastic, I'm gonna shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the things that we've learned over the years. Mostly from our mistakes and the two young dysregulated entitled people, I would say, and moving into our growth, getting lots of support with our friends, with therapists, with couples therapists, and we do have some rules that we live by around what we talk about at night, and again, I think part of it was just evolving there, but what would you... What are some of the things that you like to uphold in terms of conversations that we get into around bedtime or even an hour or two hours before we're gonna go to.
0:18:15.6 S2: Bed, a couple of things come to mind right away, and the first is just realizing our different energies. You will be very productive late at night, and I'm just like, Wow. After even about six, I feel like I'm kind of done. I'm really good to watch a movie or play a game or chat, but to make even decisions about flights and travel, I'm just feel so overwhelmed and so just realizing that I really am not gonna do well if we try to talk about something substantive. When it's getting closer to bed time, and so I'd really just gotten a lot better of just saying, Hey, I'm sorry, but we talk about this tomorrow, and I think that's really served us well.
0:19:14.3 S1: Yes, definitely, because there's not those mixed expectations, and here I am trying to go into problem-solving mode, and I'm... In that moment, my younger self would have felt done to like what we have to make these decisions. Stop being tired. Like almost as if it was your fault. And now I think there's just such a good boundary that we have recognized that we have different rhythms, we can respect that, and then I can follow up with your... I can't make decisions right now to say, Hey, when is a time tomorrow that you might be free so that we could talk and see if there's a time that our schedule allows or waiting until the weekend, and I think that has really served us well. Fighting conflicts. Of course, things come up. If anyone was a fly on the wall earlier in our marriage, ugly, really having children who were impacted by our negative energy, I think really helped us try to learn good boundaries. But one of the things, you and I grew up going to church and are presently in the church, and one of the pet peeves that I have is the mis-interpretation of the verse.
0:20:43.3 S1: Don't let the sun go down on your anger. Ephesians 4-26, I feel so irritated when I hear from the pulpit that being talked about that you should resolve all conflict before you go to bed, and the neurobiology does not uphold that, like if you're tired, you need to pause and say, let's table this and when can we talk about this? And I know you have a Bible degree so long ago, undergraduate biblical studies, and so... Yeah, what is that verse around... What is that verse around about because I think it's a misinterpretation, and I just wanna free any person out there who feels like they need to resolve their conflict before they go to.
0:21:36.7 S2: Bed, I think that... I love that chapter in Ephesians. They're so much there about how we're supposed to relate to one another, and the postal was just very concerned about this new church and how members, how the family was gonna treat each other, and there's so many things we can do with our anger that are unhelpful, and so I think the admonition there is keep your anger in the light that if you try to suppress it, try to hide it, that these things lead to bitterness and resentment, and it's gonna come out anyway in sideways. And so I think that the better idea there is a key, keep your anger in the light and try to resolve things, keep engaged with each other instead of gossip or back-biting or shutting people out, and what's been so helpful to me is just observing myself and others... And that is when we get dysregulated. It just... You can't solve any complex problem, it's just impossible. Yes, and so as I even... We were watching that TV show last night, and you could see this couple, they were just painting off each other, and we were both calling out of our skin because the longer that conversation went, the worse it got and the more painful and hurtful, and if either one of them would have just said, Hey, let's take a time out.
0:23:21.1 S2: Let's just take a little break and come back to this in 30 minutes or tomorrow, it would have went really differently, and that has really been... I've seen just the truth of that.
0:23:35.4 S1: Yet, so embarrassed that you brought that up because that show is so embarrassing that we are watching it, but I have to tell my Lister, we were essentially fast-forwarding but watching clips... See, I'm even trying to resolve my shame by clarify... It was the ultimatum on Netflix and anyway, we were watching the reunion, we kind of were able to get through the episodes to finally the end, so that was what we were watching.
0:24:14.6 S2: But... It was a good example. Yeah, it's a great example. If you keep pushing to get resolution, how destructive it can be when you're pushing at a time that your neurobiology just isn't ready for it, you can think so you're flooded, take a break and... Gosh, so many times I would keep pushing conversations, keep talking, key moving forward. And it was just a disaster. Yes, and so, especially at night, I'm just very aware of, Hey, I can't do that, I can't do this, and can we try again tomorrow and it's really... Gosh, it's really helped. I married so much.
0:25:01.5 S1: And John Gottman, he talks about in his book, The Seven Principles of making a marriage work, he talks about scheduling a time and calendar in it. I think I mentioned that in an earlier podcast, maybe the second or third episode, I can't remember, but... Yeah, scheduling, calendaring. Important conversations is really important. I think another thing that we do really practically, is you and I, we have the luxury, we have an extra room with our daughter off to college, so we start out in the bed, same bed. I shut off the light. Again, we keep that when you're ready to go to sleep, I shut off the light and read on my Kindle or the Kindle app that I have, and if you wake up in the middle of the night and feel like you are gonna struggle to go back to sleep well, you go sleep in the guest room or in our daughter's room, because you know that you're tossing and turning is gonna wake me up, and I think it's important for our listeners to know there is no shame in that, like we need sleep. Even sleeping in separate bedrooms. Like sleep is a lifeline, and I think for far too long we have through naming and shaming, kind of, you need to sleep together, there's an intimacy issue if you aren't and no, practically, we need to get sleep.
0:26:36.0 S1: So I just appreciate how we have navigated that without one of us feeling relationally rejected.
0:26:43.2 S2: Yeah, I remember just realizing that when I would wake up in the middle of the night, and if I went back to our bedroom, then I noticed it was increasing my anxiety, increasing my stress, because I was worried about trying to find a different position and how that would impact you or getting back into bed and how that might disrupt your sleep, 'cause then we're both awake, and I just remember just realizing it was such a gift just to go lay down on the couch 'cause then I could do what I needed to do to move around and find that right position, and I could do it without disrupting you, and it just helped me relax so much more, and so that's been a practice has been really helpful, I suppose. Like I said, it's really been just the last couple of years, but this new thing of needing to wake up and then all the night of the restroom and how that is affecting sleep, so... That's been helpful.
0:27:47.6 S1: Yeah, well, I just appreciate you being willing to share your story. Share our story together. I hope listeners that this has been helpful, and if it has been helpful, I would love to hear... Takeaways, please feel free to email me www. I thought I was over this dot-com. I would love to hear from you if you have any other questions, please send them our way. We love to support good relationships, whatever you're navigating, whether it be spouses, partners, roommates, etcetera, and in every episode, I love to have you pause and ask yourself what's an insight you're taking away, what's something that you want to think more about? And if there is a habit or a shift that you wanna do, when are you gonna calender that so that you can figure out how you can actually do the change or start the change that you wanna do... I'm so glad that you joined us. Be well, be safe. Until next time.